Group therapy in a blog.
Jewish Girls, Generalizations and Stereotypes
Generally speaking, I hate generalizations. I try not to use them, although they are every singles columnist’s folly: “men do this,” and “women like that,” even if we preface them with “generally,” we do no one a service with collective assumptions. Statements like “women aren’t funny” make me cringe, almost as much as all the exasperated grunts of “I officially hate men!” do.
This is why, especially absent of verifiable data (whatever that means), I hate it when people make generalizations, and not surprisingly, I hate it the most when Jewish men do it about Jewish women. For every guy I find who says “I love Jewish women, I don’t know what those guys are talking about,” there seems to be four who can rattle off a list of reasons why Jewish women are not worth the effort: “superficial,” “snobby,” “after a man who’s rolling in the Benyamins.” Some of these men are also the ones who whine about being rejected for their height or hairlines, and who turn around and reject women for their body type. Are there some women (Jewish and non-) who are superficial and only judge by appearances and wallet size? Of course. But I’m not ready to generalize that out to apply to an entire population of single women, just like I’m not willing to call all Jewish men wimpy, nerdy and boring.
I also hate trying to defend every Jewish woman to people who are never going to believe me no matter how persuasive I am. And if I ever find myself fitting into one of the stereotypes in my dating or writing life, even for a minute, I make the conscious choice to pull myself out of it. I don’t want to be judged by a generalization of a perception, but I also want to be myself.
And I really don’t like it when friends make “neutral observations” that are in in no way neutral and–as much as they are meant as compliments–sound in fact like insults. Like, “East Coast Jewish women are too difficult, too challenging, too spoiled and difficult to please….it’s no wonder Jewish men choose different women to date. I’m not saying that about you, specifically, just generally.” Nice. Usually, it’s followed up with some sort of “some of my best friends are Jewish women” comment that says “hey, I’m not the bad guy here–I’d like to see Jewish women get married as much as the next guy, but it just ain’t gonna happen if they continue to be the way they are.” And yes, that last part (italics) is a direct quote from a friend of a friend.
It seems to me–generally–that such generalizations and stereotypings are only permitted because most of the time, they’re uttered by Jews about other Jews. Coming from other people, this kind of talk is either called racism or anti-Semitism, or Woody Allen-style self-hating neurosis, or misogyny. Or something.
Italics Guy asked a friend of mine to find out the answer to the following question. “Why do you think so many American Jewish women over 30 are still (disproportionately, as compared to other women their age) single, and can’t find someone to marry”?
Obviously, I’ve been writing columns about this for years. What’s your take?
I don’t think there’s a disproportional number of Jewish unmarried women over 30 as compared to non-Jewish; I just think that the Jewish unmarrieds are more noticeable, particularly to other Jews. There are loads of unmarried non-Jewish women over 30. And yes, there may also be many Jews too. But I really don’t think it’s a glaring difference. It’s a statistical illusion. Also, I think that Jews place a slightly higher importance on marriage- there’s more pressure to get married. I don’t know that there’s the same pressure for non-Jews.
I agree with NSJ. When I was in my 20’s and rabidly trying to get married, my non-Jewish friends thought I was from another planet. They could not figure out what the rush or the obsession were about. It seemed for them getting married after 30 was desirable. Why would you want to be tied down with babies and domesticity in your twenties? That time was for fun, marriage could come later. Few of them who remain unmarried in their 30’s seem very perturbed about it. Parental pressure and the “give me grandchildren” vibe just don’t appear the way they do for the Jewish crowd.
By the way, I thought you’d enjoy this fun article from JPost about how a Jewish guy’s dream to marry an Asian finally comes true. Thank God he could finally get away from the Jewish white girls of his community.
http://tinyurl.com/6oyud6
PS, this is not a reflection on all Jewish guys! Just related to what you are saying.
er, NJG… I need coffee!
I agree with Nice Jewish Guy completely, but would also add that the internet hasn’t helped the cause of Jewish women in this regard. Too many “Jdate Superstars” are created whereby Jewish women are bombarded by IMs and emails on Jdate and other such sites. They wind up either becoming overwhelmed, and going out with no one, or they’re always trying to trade up because their inboxes are full of emails from guys they think are better than the ones sitting across the table from them on any given date.
Is JDate working for any of you?
No. Are you free after yontif?
Yes, NJG is right, or so articles/studies I have seen suggest. Obviously demographics all play a part – e.g. a very high percentage of black women over 30 are single as compared with whites, etc etc, but judasim has shown no significance in statistics. From what I have read it appears there is a reversal trend currently happening for women to get married earlier, but there certainly remains a higher percentage of single 30+ women (and men). Studies suggest that womens lib and the economy have played an important role. Educated women – and modern jewish women are universally so – are accepted, even expected, to have careers, support themselves and live lives our grandparents, and even parents, would never have dreamed possible in their day and age. Todays young women have grown up in relative affluence and expect it for themselves – whether through their own careers or through their expected successful husbands, which takes time and patience.
But, frankly, what economics fails to take into account is the psychology of relationships. In the old days, issues, fears of commitment, fears of settling were irrelevant. You hit 21 and you got married. To Max the butcher, Sheldon the accountant, or Harold the grocer – whoever. Reaching 25 was an old maid curse, that noone wanted to face – women couldnt move to the city and live like single sit com sophisticates for various economic and social reasons. So people got married. Romatic love? Wasnt a major aspect. Today, women want romantic love;, noone wants to “settle” (whatever that means – i can count maybe a handful of couples who claim (again, claim) that they are still “passionately in love” with their spouse). So we move to the big city, have a groups of single friends for emotional and social support, work and earn our own living, and can continue to do so for as long as there are other women to keep us company doing it. Our parents and grandparents couldnt do that. Hence, a plethora of single 30+ women.
NJG is not correct when he says, there isn’t a “disproportional number of Jewish unmarried women over 30 as compared to non-Jewish.”
Jews indeed are less likely to marry than non-Jews and when we marry we are more likely to marry later in life. I don’t think the late marriage/non-marriage phenomenon is due to religion, so much as to high educational attainment.
http://www.jcpa.org/cjc/cjc-fishman-f05.htm
“Proportions of singles in contemporary Jewish communities are now unprecedented. Among American Jews aged 25 to 34, more than one-third of women and more than one-half of men are not currently married. This situation is partly related to education.”
“Delayed marriage and nonmarriage contribute to a low American Jewish fertility rate, well under replacement level (i.e., fewer than two children per Jewish family). The vast majority of Jewish women, however, still place great value on having children. Along with low fertility rates, the American Jewish population is aging. “
More corroboration of Jewish late marriage and non-marriage.
http://www.ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=46437
“American Jews, both men and women, tend to marry later than Americans generally (see Table 3). In every age group under 65, proportionally fewer Jews than all Americans have ever married, with the largest gap being among those age 25-34. Only among those 65 and over do more or equal proportions of Jews report having been married than the general U.S. population. High educational levels and concentration in high status jobs among Jews provide a partial explanation for their delayed marriage and family formation.”
Sam, Thanks for the valuable stats & reports there. We can now progress with some knowledge under our collective belts. Part of the answer lies here:
@ the NJPS Webpage: [http://www.ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=46437].
“Majorities of Jewish women age 25-29 and 30-34 have still not had a child, while less than half of all U.S. women in these age groups are childless. It is not until age 35-39 that less than half of Jewish women remain childless, compared to a fifth of all U.S. women. By age 40-44, usually considered the last childbearing age group, the gap narrows but is not completely closed, with just over a quarter of Jewish women remaining childless compared to less than a fifth of all U.S. women.”
Again the authors of the study posit this to higher educational attainment & achievement. Which is fine. Why Both sexes are lagging 5 percentage pts & better for most of the age spectrum in ‘ever married’ is anyone’s guess however. It’s not an especially good indication of the health of a population either.
So beyond & apart from all the generalizations, qualifiers, excuses & complaints about this or that aspect of humanity or the opposite sex, we’ve got a distinct population (of Jews) that appears statistically somewhat More Reluctant or Able to get Married. As this is Often a precursor to being able to raise healthy productive kids, we beget fewer kids, later. It’s as simple & as complex as that. So yes, it’s a problem of both affluence & privilege & success. But in the end we all beget a smaller community of Jews.
But if you ever want to hope to witness anyone Really “too difficult, too challenging, too spoiled and difficult to please….” you just Have to have kids.
I know, I’m not helping the Rabbi’s case here, right?
Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’
BTW: If this remains true: “By age 40-44, usually considered the last childbearing age group, the gap narrows but is not completely closed, with just over a quarter of Jewish women remaining childless compared to less than a fifth of all U.S. women.†We can easily predict that apart from adoption, (still fairly rare) or acquiring step children in later life, about 1/4 of Jewish women in the future will not be bearing their own children. That’s something they may not mention in college. Even with modern fertility treatments, this may not change much for the foreseeable future. And there’s every suspicion that this number will actually be growing too, given current trends. Not all that cheery, but it’s still something to think about. I know, we should all turn Hassid! Good Luck! ‘VJ’
What bothers me about stuff like this is that it seems to imply that if we want more Jewish marriages and Jewish babies, then maybe we need to curtail Jewish women’s educational attainment.
But as they say, how can you keep them on the farm after they have been to Paris?
I say that marriage and motherhood needs to be made less of a painful sacrifice for all women, then you will see women getting married (and perhaps getting married earlier) and having kids (and perhaps having more kids), than under the present situation. I heard this is already starting to happen in Japan where the population has been shrinking for at least a good 10-15 years now, because while Japanese women have changed Japanese men have not, leading more and more Japanese women to eschew marriage and motherhood. Something to think about.
Treifalicious, the tragedy is that I “only” have a BA and I have never been to Paris. If I had married seven or eight years ago, I would likely have one or two kids by now; but I wouldn’t be talking to any of you people because this blog (and my column, and probably most of the writing I do now) wouldn’t exist. Or if it did, someone else would have created it, not me…
Neither is inherently good or bad–it just IS. And certainly, I can’t go back to change things, because my Delorean is in the shop and I promised local law enforcement that I’d cease my 88 mph lifestyle…
What about proportion of divorces in upper-middle-class Jewish homes in the ’70s through ’90s, shattering a sense of stability, and turning the next generation off the idea of settling down… are there stats on that? Religious tradtion usually seems the first thing to go in those cases…
Treif makes a good point, and there’s very few folks suggesting that we not desire to have higher education for women (or men) in our community, but this is in point of fact how the Hassids do it. That’s usually seen as fairly ‘radical’, and it certainly is. On the other point, I really don’t think we can blame divorce for all or even much of this. The trend in educational attainment alone explains quite a bit of it. That’s typically seen as a ‘secular & universal good’, so it’s probably an issue or a trend that’s not unaffected by divorce, but the impact would seem to be limited. But I’m willing to be convinced by more statistics!
But certainly we make it much harder on women in this national culture to bear & care for children. We’re the only nation without decent policies on childcare & maternity leave. It’s gotten to be a sad joke, and yes even the Japanese have caught on to this fact. If you want more babies born, you have to be more welcoming of them & parents in general. This usually means lots more taxes and more benefits (& universal health care too), so it’s always been a hard sell over here. Except in time of War, like WW11. Then we were just fine with spending the money to keep the factories humming & the mothers happy. We had a war to win back then, & we were truly serious about it! Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’
Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that development experts have found that the key to the enfancisement of women in 3rd world countries (and bringing down birth rates, etc) is education and job/career opportunities for women.
If you read The Feminine Mystique (a book that should be required reading in high schools), they will mention that up until the 60s, women went to college, but mostly to get their “MRS degree”. Their education was supposed to make them better wives and mothers. This got pretty frustrating as women who were taught how to think were relegated to lives of drudgery and asked themselves “Is this all there is?” If they were not married after college they got some job as a teacher or secretary until they met their husbands. These women didn’t have full lives of their own – they just marked time until they married and had kids. A lot of Orthodox women still operate that way. For the most part, however, it’s a thing of the past. From what I have heard from the children of women like this it seems these women were not very happy, that they were frustrated that they threw their gifts and their dreams away for a life of domesticity that was not all peace, love and happiness as people hyped it up to be when they were young and single. I guess it’s kind of like the army – the “system” feeds you all this bullshit to get you on board and then you find out it’s not as attractive as you thought.
Observe any parent with small children and you will find that, kids can be a real pain in the ass. I used to have this idealized view of marriage and especially parenthood. Then right after I graduated college, I had a housemate in his 30s with 2 toddlers who visited every weekend and I saw what it’s like to deal with small children all day. It sucked. Our living room was turned into a kindergarten and I started making sure to not be home on Saturdays so as to avoid the kid-centered atmosphere. It blew to smithereens any desires I had to have children anytime soon. Now, as I am in my mid 30s, children look a little more appealing but having kids still seems more like an obligation than anything else.
I suppose the main thing to bring out of this is that having kids and being a domestic workhorse (because the main work of childrearing will fall on your shoulders) is not fun and that given the the high cost to women of marriage and childrearing, women would likely choose something else or, more accuarely, put it off until the last possible minute if it were up to them. Remember that in the past women married and had kids earlier because they have fewer choices in life. Having kids cuts off people’s (usually women’s) choices in the present social and economic environment (try getting a job teaching English in Asia when you have a 3 year old and a 1 year old. Sure you CAN do it theoretically but it’s much less likely). Today you have more choices and are most likely happier than your grandmother may have been (you have NO idea how many people I have met born in the 50s and earlier who are the product of shotgun marriages. They only found this out in maybe their 40s but it explained a lot of mishegoss within their families that was HIDDEN FROM THEM for most of their lives for the sake of appearances).
If the Jewish community wants more babies, it will have to organize to make it easier for modern, educated Jewish women to have families (along with encouraging Jews to meet each other as they already do through many social organizations). Unfortunately, I think it is beyond the scope of Jewish communal organizations to make life easier for mothers in the workplace, etc. The most they can do is lobby.
Interesting discussion!
I have to take except to something “Marc” says above:
oops, messed that up, the “marc” quote I refer to was
“I agree with Nice Jewish Guy completely, but would also add that the internet hasn’t helped the cause of Jewish women in this regard. Too many “Jdate Superstars†are created whereby Jewish women are bombarded by IMs and emails on Jdate and other such sites. They wind up either becoming overwhelmed, and going out with no one, or they’re always trying to trade up because their inboxes are full of emails from guys they think are better than the ones sitting across the table from them on any given date.”
The following JDate personal was found recently and reveals some of the problems in the Reform Jewish Community…
About Me
I’ll take Morals, Values, Integrity, and Truth over Ritual and Tradition. The outdoor world over the shopping world. I can adequately take care of myself – looking for a friend and lover, not a mother. Values the simple things in life, not just the extravagant and expensive. I prefer open-mindedness and someone laid back to drama, games, or a personality cult. Some TV is fine, but I’ve got enough real hobbies and interests to Not have time for reality shows. I’m not tall 5’ 9â€, somewhat dark in the summer, more handsome than my photos I’m told, and on the slim/slender side relative to obese America. This body has previously run a 4:29.5 mile, a sub 2-minute half-mile, and still hauls A at longer distances, good luck finding a Jewish boy with that physical background. I know what my max heart rate is. I try to keep the body G-d gave me in shape; hopefully you do so also. I race a small sailboat (420 pounds), frequently trophies at regattas that I travel to, and have raced in a national invitation only qualifying regatta in 5 out of the last 6 yrs (I’m not competing in the local JCC league!). I am competitive and strive to improve at many things. Life is short, I work hard, but work to live and I am not a slippery corporate ladder climber. I enjoy many activities including snowboarding, hiking, volleyball, mountain biking, horses, and swimming/snokerling/ beaches. Going to the theater or ballet, dinning out, and watching movies. I am into astronomy, have a large telescope, play chess online, read a lot, tinker with computers, databases, and programming. If you don’t like a little bit of geekiness try the muscle bound bars please. Reform/Spiritual, Very supportive of Israel. Life is short, I spend a minimal amount of time at synagogue and prefer to get outside and enjoy and appreciate the world G-d created. I do not live in a strictly Jewish bubble; I travel non-traditional paths. Very willing to relocate. I am a sweet, “niceâ€, guy that has a serious JDating attitude.
I am looking for a:
Must like animals, if you don’t do Not contact me (I have one cat). Right Wing Politics – please left click and exit. Mixed Ethnic, Canadian, Israeli, or of non-US origin have often connected better with me. Someone different! Someone real. Someone that can handle a drop of rain. Surprise me! Sorry if this sounds harsh, I know what works for me. There are reasons why there is a 46% Reform inter-faith marriage rate and that may be where I am headed.
InterFaith: how old are you? if you’re aiming for women +/- 4 years of your age, you should have no major problems. Try not to sound long-winded and negative, btw.
The profile is typical of JDate, and one’s reaction depends a bit on whether revealing oneself through one’s activities is the optimum approach. There is also a slightly bitter tinge to the conclusion, along the lines of “if I don’t get to play I’ll take my toys and go home and you’ll be sorry…” which strikes me as auto-emasculating. One must be an eternal optimist in one’s ad. Otherwise, par for the course. You find some version of the above all the time on JDate.
Jewish women are the worst. They are the pickiest women alive, with Asians a close second. They wont even give you a chance! And they are more interested in how much is in your bank account! “Cool” Jewish women are a rarity. Not easy to find a Jewish “artist” who could care less about money. Did you ever notice how all the “cool” guys end up with non Jewish women? Non Jewish women WANT us! Jewish women dont. After the shiksas grab up all the good Jewish men, whats left for you? All the weak, spineless, “nice Jewish boys”, mensches, mamas boys, dweebs, schlemiels, and guys who are easy to manipulate and control?
I know Jewish mothers teach their daughters “never to settle”, and to hold out for that doctor or lawyer. How many Jewish women really ever end up with a doctor or lawyer anyway. Eventually, Jewish women WILL settle. Its either settle or end up old, alone and bitter on Jdate.
Im a Jewish guy who married a wonderful black women, and we have a great son and daughter. We are divorced today, but still friends.
The bottom line here is that I have no problem getting dates with shiksas and non Jews. The same cant be said about trying to get dates with Jewish women. That tells you something.
I think the dating game is much like rock paper scissors. For every female race, there is a male race perfectly suitable in a dating/marriage situation.